End the Grind

Troublemaker
Troublemaker Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
So, a few months have passed and I honestly feel the situation is on level or even worse than before. We have players doing 70+ rounds every week.

What is surprising me is that no one is raising any concern about this, and NG is doing things to push the grind further and further.

It's no secret that NG thinks having players online 24/7 is a good thing, but I particularly would like to have a healthier environment, where I can have fun and engage with my guildmates and not feel like I have to quit real life completely and live in an "addiction sinkhole" so I can play competitively.

To me it's better to have a happy player than an addicted player, although I can clearly see lots of arguments against it (it's your responsability and not NG''s etc).

But I can't be numb about this anymore. Time for a rebalance is way overdue. We are not stupid.

#endthegrind.
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Comments

  • DLich
    DLich Member Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I individually ended my grind by playing a different game more often (although it's another NG game).

    The best way to get over one person game is to get into another :trollface:

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  • mik81
    mik81 Member Posts: 339
    #endthegrind

    on a +50 rounds we could eliminate half of those, make the game more appealing, challenging and not as demanding. Bun out is real at that point, competitive players don't know how to play casual, so it's all in, or all out. Honestly I'd think this game has lost already too many players for this reason.

    TroublemakerKick_assJadentabernacGoatKingJenngbigbeanoUndertaker
  • ReglS
    ReglS Member Posts: 2
    O jogo está muito puxado, tem que gastar muito tempo para chegar ao limite no desafio, e ficar o fim de semana se matando de jogar não está sendo nada bom para minha diversão no jogo.Eu gosto de ser competitivo, porém para tal está consumindo demais o meu tempo e confesso que estou desanimando depois de 3 anos de jogo. Ao meu ver está errado a forma que é distribuído os rounds, pois nos leveis difíceis deveria ser somente uma rodada por level e não 3 pois consome tempo demais, essa é a minha sugestão.
    TroublemakerCronusS100200
  • Troublemaker
    Troublemaker Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NG, you have to choose if you want:

    1) Good 24/7 online players stats for investors;

    or

    2) Any players at all.

    You are doing this wrong. Take your faces away from spreadsheets and data for a while and use your hearts or guts.

    You were very afraid of changing round passes from 5 to 3 for a long time while the players kept saying it was for the best. Same situation here. No one loves the game more than we, the players, do.

    @Kaz @Shteevie listen!
    S100200tabernac
  • JayZ
    JayZ Member Posts: 3,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wishes are fine and all, but what do you propose as the solution?
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  • Narnia
    Narnia Member Posts: 63
    edited August 2018
    Totally agree, and If my bruiser, scout, shooter, hunter, and so on, all badged up, reaches level 25 with all upgraded equipment, how far will I have to go before the challenge becomes challenging?
    Personally, and I understand this varies, but 30 rounds to me equates to roughly 15 hours of gameplay per week, and that's a significant dedication, but that I go an extra 14 or so rounds to achieve truly challenging maps is way too much.
    I really wish there were different types of challenges, one to achieve highest RSL levels way faster, and one for people whom enjoy the grind, because both populations exist, and both have given up what they actually want.
    I suggest offering a "fast track" option for everyone to choose that somehow still balances the star counts, and appeases the whole (or at least a lot of the) population of gamers.
    KirnasTroublemakerJadenJenngcrambert_nec
  • Kick_ass
    Kick_ass Member Posts: 271
    I have similar concerns as higher scoring players are getting more burnt out each week. So sad to see players who have invested so much time and money feeling frustrated and dejected.

    I realise its hard to find a balance, but I hate seeing players go.
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  • mik81
    mik81 Member Posts: 339
    JayZ said:

    Wishes are fine and all, but what do you propose as the solution?

    There are infinity solutions... Essentially we need to reduce the beginning rounds. If you can do 20-25 rounds without even paying attention to the game, just one shot killing everything.... it cant be even called a game... Even the crappy "auto-play" feature could get you there. Those rounds don't need to be played, imo.
    Troublemakerpsychwolftabernacmimicacrambert_nec
  • NerfZone187
    NerfZone187 Member Posts: 788
    Remember when everybody wanted the UC format?

    -Pepperidge Farm Remembers
    Troublemaker
  • S100200
    S100200 Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭
    For me it would be nice with 1 in a maximum of 2 rounds per level only.

    Sidinei Parizot
    Brazil Team
    Troublemakertabernaccrambert_nec
  • Pic
    Pic Member Posts: 649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Too much, make It challenging quicker
    crambert_nec
  • Troublemaker
    Troublemaker Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    JayZ said:

    Wishes are fine and all, but what do you propose as the solution?

    First of all NG has to decide if they want players online 24/7 or want any players at all. No change will work if they keep pushing us down the sinkhole.

    The most obvious thing for me as a player is to have 1 round per lvl - simple and straight. Lots of things would need recalculations though, like Round Passes, starting levels etc.

    To me it even makes more sense to start at RSL 1 and have 1 round per lvl than start at RSL 26 and play multiple rounds.
    tabernac
  • DBones
    DBones Member Posts: 784
    @Troublemaker, while I absolutely applaud your dedication and passion to this issue, I would STRONGLY object to going back to the OG challenge of starting at RSL 1. No less than 2 dozen totally meaningless rounds. I realize we have a lot of easy peasy rounds as it is, but at least we get XP and occasionally even a useful piece of gear. At RSL 1-24, we're getting absolute crap from crates. Equally boring, but with FAR less rewards.

    With that being said, I don't see any reason why we can't simply keep the starting round structure as is, and simply have 1 round at each level, like you also suggested (I would certainly support this change :)). Like you said, some recalculating for RP's, etc. would have to be made (possibly eliminating RP's altogether), but I think that would be a very reasonable solution.
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  • mik81
    mik81 Member Posts: 339
    About 37% of DAU have been reduced vs previous year...
    If that doesn't say it all....
    jester
  • Troublemaker
    Troublemaker Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @DBones of course I don't like starting at RSL 1... I just mentioned that it makes more sense to me than repeating rounds 2-3x times.

    Problem here is the conflict between players' interests X NG's interests.

    The game will die if NG keeps doing what they are doing.
    DBones
  • DBones
    DBones Member Posts: 784
    Yeah, I figured it was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion, but I don't want to take any chances of that godawful setup coming back, so I just wanted to go on the record opposing it vehemently :D
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  • dgraminho
    dgraminho Member Posts: 38 ✭✭✭
    Only considering simple solutions. I´m well aware they will not implement anything that is resource consuming.

    1) Eliminate triple rounds completely (Will hit top level quicker)
    2) Round Passes every 2 rounds instead of 3 (To keep getting a pass in every level increase)
    Troublemakercrambert_nec
  • WellyLuga
    WellyLuga Member Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's a tough one to fix really as the range of player skill level/survivor strength is huge. To the point where it's impossible to have a one size fits all sort of setup.

    3 round passes helped a lot but perhaps removing all .3 rounds. I average RSL35/36 most weeks unless there's a brutal map so that would cut 8 rounds from me personally and I don't imagine it would impact on the players who maybe don't get so far :smile:
    TroublemakerJenngmack22
  • GoatKing
    GoatKing Member Posts: 6
    I agree. For skilled players who like to push it is far too time consuming when only a part of that is actually challenging.
    TroublemakerStarr621
  • Putchuco
    Putchuco Member Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The grind already finished me... :disappointed:
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  • nadecir
    nadecir Member Posts: 271 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's face facts: NG monetizes the challenge grind.

    A good challenge solutio that works for all levels of players is a simple one. Let the player choose their starting level. For the scoreboard, a player's best 30 rounds counts toward their star count.

    Players who wants to grind can start at level 1. Players who only want to play a few challenging levels can do so without playng boring low level rounds. Competitive players will continue to push to high levels because they will want the high level round bonuses. But a competitive player can also limit their grind to 30 rounds or so if they do desire, and still compete for the top spots on the leaderboard.

    No round passes are necessary. No more funky calculation of starting levels. Simple enough that every player can understand it.

    This idea might actually bring more revenue to NG than the current system because the system allows players to play more if they do desire than the current system..
    TroublemakerkkatsuPutchucoromeo
  • Troublemaker
    Troublemaker Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kaz said:

    So, a few months have passed and I honestly feel the situation is on level or even worse than before. We have players doing 70+ rounds every week.



    What is surprising me is that no one is raising any concern about this, and NG is doing things to push the grind further and further.



    It's no secret that NG thinks having players online 24/7 is a good thing, but I particularly would like to have a healthier environment, where I can have fun and engage with my guildmates and not feel like I have to quit real life completely and live in an "addiction sinkhole" so I can play competitively.



    To me it's better to have a happy player than an addicted player, although I can clearly see lots of arguments against it (it's your responsability and not NG''s etc).



    But I can't be numb about this anymore. Time for a rebalance is way overdue. We are not stupid.



    #endthegrind.

    Wait a sec, guys. I hear you and it definitely sucks to hear that a lot of players are still not happy with the Challenge settings. But let's be careful with the wild assumptions that are simply not true. Of course, it's hard to actually know what happens "behind the scenes", but I guess that's up to me to clear that up.

    So:

    - It can't be worse than it was before. If you are starting at least at the same difficulty level that your survivors are, means that it's already better. If it still feels grindy, then it's (sadly) another problem.

    - 70+ rounds every week means that player has at least 23 round passes and therefore he's actually playing 47 rounds to reach that mark, which feels grindy indeed, but not as horrifying as it sounds, right? haha.

    - We don't want to burn out any player. If a player is playing our game 24/7 because he wants to, it's fine, I guess... But we don't want to force this unhealthy behavior. We strive for a good retention and a healthy number of sessions per day. Probably someone is going to slap me at the office tomorrow for saying this but we would rather have someone that plays a couple of missions every day and buy a gold bundle every week than having a hardcore player that buys a gas bundle every day and makes the best of our events. Gas Boosters are the most selling item in the game, but it doesn't scale enough to be our most profitable item. What I want to say is that we have the same goal here, we want players to have a good time every time they play the game. Forcing them to play as much as they can isn't good for us either.

    - And that last topic you mentioned is the one I'm trying to change the most. It's terribly common to hear that "customers are stupid". Not only in the gaming industry but in any other industry as well. I always try to have the "customers are always right" mentality and that's what I promote where I work. I'm actually embarrassed because I can't be as good as our hardcore players are, even NML being my favorite mobile game, I can't reach more than 1200 stars every week. Anyway, we know that everything we create in the game, one player will do better, so I highly appreciate any feedback, because I'm sure it's someone who's looking at that from a different angle and also someone who could kick our asses if we would compete. And only to let it crystal clear, we, at Next Games, don't think players are stupid. :p

    BUT, everything I wrote there is kinda irrelevant to the problem, so here's the part that matters:

    - For the same reason you were surprised, I was not aware that this was still a big thing, and therefore I've stopped pushing it to the devs. I've seen almost no feedback about the grind at all. And I do have a long list of recurrent requests like fixing revenge trait (although people have different opinions about that), improve the cover system, progressive challenge rewards and so on. But "fix the grind part 2" is not there, simply because I thought players were at least satisfied with that. So I'm sorry for not paying so much attention to that.

    - Some ideas here are pretty interesting, but I must be honest you guys. My favorite one so far is the POWER CHALLENGE idea (or something like that) suggested by @ATLAS-Z where you could play one extra hard mission and skip the round, or play the other missions to lower the difficulty of this extra hard mission. Unfortunately, this required some dev work and can't be added straight away. Let me compile everything, bring to the team and hopefully, we'll have a fruitful discussion! :)

    - Unfortunately, I think it's too late to add changes to the balance update we are about to release, and I think we don't have time to add something more sophisticated in the update after that. But I'll bring this up again and see if we could come with a fast (and good) solution. I can't promise anything for now because I haven',t even talked to the team. I'll try to keep you guys updated.


    And last but not least, I'm sorry, once again, to hear that you guys are having a bad experience with the challenges. :(
    @kaz, first and foremost, thanks for coming by and speaking to us. Highly appreciated.

    I'll go by topic and I hope these statements help you understand:

    - The Distance happening 2x a week, with one of those times happening together with the Challenge adds a lot to the burnout factor. The "if you don't play you don't progress" feeling wasn't here when we didn't have The Distance, so I'd definitely say the grind has increased and is killing endgamers every week. No data will show you this feeling;

    - I think NG has improved the way it treats customers (aka "players"), be it with your presence here or better stuff in-game. So less are feeling salty and are kinda of "reward drunk" at the moment. No data will show you this feeling;

    - Power Challenge is a VERY good idea. It won't prevent players from buying Full Gas and will also create some hospital situations that are interesting to NG (gold for healing), as players will always try it before playing other maps.

    Kaz
  • WellyLuga
    WellyLuga Member Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agreed @ShadowaceAz. I don't think anyone is calling for the early rounds to be cut as while that would alleviate some of the grind for the elite players, it would leave everybody else sitting there twiddling their thumbs when they finish the challenge on Saturday/Sunday :lol:

    If anything it could do with being cut from the top end. Personally I don't see the point of the 3 rounds per RSL, unless there's a horrendous map with quick spawns like Road runner, quarry crossroad, green thumb etc chances are if I can beat the .1 maps I can beat the .3 maps
    ShadowaceAz
  • Japes87
    Japes87 Member Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Kaz the real problem is the rewards , maxing out in this game takes crazy time and energy. The current rewards aren't worth that .. there just has to be a reason to grind because a game without good players sucks if they all leave
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  • Troublemaker
    Troublemaker Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some add-ons to the best suggestion we have had so far:

    - One of the six maps is +5 RSL; if you complete it you can skip the round entirely;
    - Each one of the other maps you finish within current round lowers that map RSL by 1; if you complete all, then that special map becomes the same difficulty as the others (exactly like current mechanic);
    - Remove Round Passes completely;
    - Challenge starts at highest level survivor (lvl 24 = RSL 24);
    - 3 round can be default with this system (no need to make 2 round until RSL X etc and make confusing mechanics).

    I think this eases up things for players and still leaves the grind for NG to monetize.
    Kaz
  • capibara
    capibara Member Posts: 6,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    I suggested long time ago a fix..i still consider not bad.. but had very few feedback..
    Rodent fix
    https://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/31201/my-grind-fix-rodent-fix
    It's a two game play... as usual...grind and rewards...and "alternative"... only the last rounds, no grind and no rewards.
    I would be pleased to start the game at round 30 ...and lose all the individual rewards... finally.. we still need xp, supplies, crap gear or phones? I don't... ;)
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  • warlordf
    warlordf Member Posts: 218
    edited August 2018
    honestly i thought people were more happy now but why dont developers let people choose the level players start?

    if top players want game to be more challenging for them cause everything is easy before level 32 or 33 or for some even 35 let them start with 0 stars at level 35 to see if they really want game to be challenging :P

    speaking seriously, i also dont understand the 3 rounds for each level, specially because walkers dont have the level of the level we are playing, it would make more logic to have 1 round each level if walkers were from that same level i think, but on the other hand, if i need to play only 1 hour to get max i would quit game, i really like this game and challenge lets me play for hours and having fun, and thats what matters.