Time for some changes to GW scoring...

JayZ
JayZ Member Posts: 3,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 2020 in Guild Wars Discussion
Today, the top two teams of Season 6 played each other. The outcome was supposed to decide whether Mavericks OG had a 2-win lead and an easy path to a season victory, or whether TLOU would tie the season totals and have a chance at overtaking Mavericks in points.



Unfortunately, neither of those things happened. Both teams achieved the maximum possible score for a 7-player team, which is going to be increasingly common in the future because red gas has made the game too easy.



There are two main problems...

Problem 1: One team finished today with 2 retries, while the other team only used 1. The team that only used 1 retry probably deserved the victory (they certainly would have won in the old system). Red gas needs a 20% VP penalty so that teams still have an incentive to play clean and perfect. Otherwise, there will be no differentiating between teams that can play at this level.

Problem 2: Neither team will get any type of victory bonus for VPs or RPs. If Red Snow (currently third place) were closer to us in the standings, they could have potentially passed us because both teams "lost" today by tying. Ties should award both teams 1.5x bonuses, or at the very least 1.25x bonuses. Treating it as a loss for both teams is unfair to both teams and can mess with the leaderboard.
Proud member of Mavericks OG, a top 3 global GW and challenge guild.
Message me on the forums or on Line (ID: jayztwdnml) if you're interested in joining the Mavericks family of guilds.

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGSePrANMyf_S_YKJyfJodg
Strategy compendium: https://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/41787/jayzs-nml-strategy-compendium
FirekidNova_TWDTCBRITOTroublemakerJankel[Deleted User]PasteignasJens_KFn00bBurmeliinisShadowWalkerADPaqChrisScorpioXeRo
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Comments

  • JayZ
    JayZ Member Posts: 3,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Unrelated to the scoring issue: I should say congratulations to TLOU on an excellent season. It's still far from over as we both have to play Red Snow this week. No matter who wins the season, I want to say that I have incredible respect for the fantastic players in TLOU (and also TLOU Too, their wing guild who almost beat us last week).
    Proud member of Mavericks OG, a top 3 global GW and challenge guild.
    Message me on the forums or on Line (ID: jayztwdnml) if you're interested in joining the Mavericks family of guilds.

    Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGSePrANMyf_S_YKJyfJodg
    Strategy compendium: https://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/41787/jayzs-nml-strategy-compendium
    Nova_TWDTCBRITO[Deleted User]ChrisScorpio
  • ATLAS-Z
    ATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @JayZ how would you stop teams from purposely tying?

    Say if an arrangement were made between two friendly commanders? 


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

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  • ATLAS-Z
    ATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Damn I missed a perfect opportunity to use the word amicable


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

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    JayZTroublemaker[Deleted User]zaradinShadowWalker
  • Busta
    Busta Member Posts: 108
    ATLAS-Z said:
    @JayZ how would you stop teams from purposely tying?

    Say if an arrangement were made between two friendly commanders? 
    That’s why there needs to be a change with red gas period. Get rid of it or make it so you lose points if it’s needed. 
  • Drunken
    Drunken Member Posts: 1,719
    I love ties. I think it’s great when top players who have spent a lot get big ole turds dumped on them.  
    WellyLugaPic[Deleted User]Jens_KFCronusShadowWalker
  • ATLAS-Z
    ATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's an idea

    Tie breaker goes to the higher score between the lowest scoring player on each team.

    If they tie, then the next up.

    If everyone ties exactly, tiebreaker goes to whichever team spent the most cash the previous week. 


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

    Are you Lost? Alone? Looking for a killer team to have your back?
    Join ZOMBREX! We have a tiered guild structure so players of every level and ambition can find a home they fit in.
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    Drunken[Deleted User]CronusShadowWalker
  • Pic
    Pic Member Posts: 649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well done! @TLOU @Jens_KF
    Jens_KFChrisScorpio
  • Karajoca
    Karajoca Member Posts: 354
    This wouldn't change pretty much anything

    Mavericks and TLOU would still be the best. But this would stop you from having flawless victories and completing 6H all the time, making your matches more interesting. 

    Otherwise we need new sectors because of you. 6-H is obviously not enough to stop you 🤷🏻‍♂️
    [Deleted User]
  • Vastich
    Vastich Member Posts: 44
    ATLAS-Z said:
    If everyone ties exactly, tiebreaker goes to whichever team spent the most cash the previous week. 
    it's like casting lots in case of a draw in old football matches at the World or Euro Football Cup. The same level of justice
  • Vastich
    Vastich Member Posts: 44
    edited November 2020
    Karajoca said:
    But i have a question, is this only measurement of which team is better? Aren't tools also important? 

    Seriously asking, what everyone thinks. 
    If Team A used 100 tools in total, while team B used 80, to get same score, how is that different then someone using 2 red gas vs 1? 
    Exactly. It has big impact too
  • WellyLuga
    WellyLuga Member Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Congrats to both teams this season, whichever of you ends up winning deserves it. Hugely talented and dedicated players in both guilds. I agree, the scoring system should change with a draw, under no circumstances should both guilds get a 1.5x win bonus though - it's a draw and therefore as is with anything else the rewards should be split. 1.25x is fair.

    Red gas retries will only become a problem when everyone has burnt through their massive stockpile and the only way to get it is to buy it. As it stands, everyone has it so no one has an unfair 'pay to win' advantage by using it. To me, red gas is a free resource that I can use to reduce the amount of tools I need to remain competitive in this ridiculous game mode. I can use the first attempt as a free hit, then use red gas and tools on the repeat. In the old mode I would have to use tools from the get go. With a couple retries per battle I maybe spend 10-20 per battle, sometimes even less than that. I don't want to do the math but I think the game will die long before I burn through my 700+ reserve, especially if I continue topping it up from the rewards shop.

    If you really want it to be a best team wins game mode then that needs addressing first. No amount of red gas will get you through some maps in 6H, but 4-5 grenades/medkits will...
    n00baquilakinko
  • Jens_KF
    Jens_KF Member Posts: 54 ✭✭✭
    JayZ said:
    Unrelated to the scoring issue: I should say congratulations to TLOU on an excellent season. It's still far from over as we both have to play Red Snow this week. No matter who wins the season, I want to say that I have incredible respect for the fantastic players in TLOU (and also TLOU Too, their wing guild who almost beat us last week).
    Thanks so much JayZ! We feel the same about you and the Mavs! It is fun to compete every week.
    ChrisScorpio
  • Jens_KF
    Jens_KF Member Posts: 54 ✭✭✭
    Pic said:
    Well done! @TLOU @Jens_KF
    Thanks! You too! Biggest respect!
  • Jens_KF
    Jens_KF Member Posts: 54 ✭✭✭
    Karajoca said:
    First, congratulations to both teams for astonishing season, 6 battles each week, all 6 played to max always, 6-H closed almost every time. 
    No doubt, two best guilds in this mode and two most dedicated, with a clear goal in the head, to be the best. 

    I would like to make this mode more fair and precise of course. Small VP penalty for retry is completely understandable request

    But i have a question, is this only measurement of which team is better? Aren't tools also important? 

    Seriously asking, what everyone thinks. 
    If Team A used 100 tools in total, while team B used 80, to get same score, how is that different then someone using 2 red gas vs 1? 

    IMO, tools have bigger impact, because they are completely pay to win. Red gas at least, everyone has plenty. 
    From my experience, to get ~800 score, u need at least 20 tools, more or less depending on mapset. Sure someone can do it with less and that's my point. 
    I wouldn't be able to score that high if tools are limited to let's say 15 per user, per  1 battle. 
    Tools are definitely a point. However, they are not available in infinite numbers anymore, so I don‘t think that this is a big issue.

    For me, red gas is a much bigger issue, as it is much harder to finish a mission in first try, than in second. So it also should be rewarded differently. In first try you don’t know the map, you don’t know how many special walkers you have, sometimes you don’t even know where the barrels are (if available), as they are hidden. In second try you have all these information, so it is definitely easier. Therefore it should be rewarded differently.
    Paste
  • Karajoca
    Karajoca Member Posts: 354
    Just saying its ridiculous that you do 6-H every time. If stays this way, this is how your future matches will be. Fail (either with red gas penalty or "full" fail) will decide the winner.
    And let me remind you, stupid randomness in this game can give you bad spawn, none pre-charge, or anti stun won't work and your fail will be just bad luck. 
    Will it be fair to lose that way? 

    Meanwhile, tool purchase is limited only for us peasants who could afford a few when necessary during mission. Regular buyer can stock up since they appear in bundles pretty much regularly.
    I am sorry but i can't pay 20$ per week to be competitive in this game.

    Limit Tool consuming during battle to acceptable amount would stop you from going insane. And everyone would finally have equal playing field.

    I see it as :  
    You enter battle, see enemy, and get option to choose which tools you want to put in the box. Limit is, let's say 15, and you can add 8 grenades, 7 medkits, or 10/5 or 6/9...
    Start playing and you wasted too many? Time to take it easier, someone else need to step up from team. 

    This can bring some strategy into game, even red gas can be used as a "free try" to play without tools, to save them, otherwise we will never get rid of it.
    Especially if you add penalty. It's just more tool spending to avoid fail, come on!   :D  
    ADPaq
  • WellyLuga
    WellyLuga Member Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Karajoca said:

    This can bring some strategy into game, even red gas can be used as a "free try" to play without tools, to save them, otherwise we will never get rid of it.

    This is the best side of red gas for us peasants :lol:. Red gas is only an issue for the players swimming in tools :trollface:
  • Burmeliinis
    Burmeliinis Member Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think limiting tools to 1 grenade and 1 medikit per mission would be a good solution. Only problem (for NG) is that it limits the amount of cash flowing to NG.
    Ingame username: Jubjab
    kinkoADPaq
  • ATLAS-Z
    ATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    @Fluxxx i would like to go on record that I disagree with @Karajoca on this matter

    (many times I will agree but not here, I will be the Devils advocate)

    For perspective , not much big spending in my squads. Some, sure.

    I do not think further limiting tools is an attractive option.

    I feel strongly quite the opposite.

    I think tools have breathed a fresh breath of life into strategy of this game and what I would like to see is more tools more widely available

    The problem isn't the tools the problem is the cost of those tools
    I would like tools to be free or at least some tools to be free and more widely available so I could waste them in any game mode I feel like not feel like I need to save them for Guild Wars
    Further address the tool economy, don't restrict tool usage, rather increase it


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

    Are you Lost? Alone? Looking for a killer team to have your back?
    Join ZOMBREX! We have a tiered guild structure so players of every level and ambition can find a home they fit in.
    Remember, search ZOMBREX FAMILY. 
    Our page :
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    Send me a PM or message ATLAS#5063 on Discord

    KarajocaShadowWalkerBurmeliinis
  • ATLAS-Z
    ATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020


    #ToolsRFun


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

    Are you Lost? Alone? Looking for a killer team to have your back?
    Join ZOMBREX! We have a tiered guild structure so players of every level and ambition can find a home they fit in.
    Remember, search ZOMBREX FAMILY. 
    Our page :
    https://m.facebook.com/Zombrex2015/

    Send me a PM or message ATLAS#5063 on Discord

    ShadowWalkerSarge_
  • Karajoca
    Karajoca Member Posts: 354
    Fair point @ATLAS-Z

    I mentioned many times that i like them actually. But yeah, cost is the problem. 
    I don't know... guess i can take a break from it, hoard one season and i can then do my best without being afraid to spend them. Right now it's just not working

    Furthermore i think, NG need to find a way to make "hero of the week" and extra points you can get from using featured hero work in  this mode. Can be solution for tight matches, and hard to have a draw.
    If they make penalty for Red Gas work, they can make this too, i hope
    ATLAS-ZPasteSarge_
  • JayZ
    JayZ Member Posts: 3,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think there are two unrelated issues. I do agree @Karajoca that the tool economy is pretty messed up, especially if you compete every week. We are lucky that many of our top players can afford to purchase the tool packs whenever they are sold, but I don't think it's fair that tools make such a big different in outcomes. I said it right when tools were released: tools reduce the amount of skill needed to win in GW, and it widens the F2P and P2P gap, and I wasn't wrong.

    This is an unrelated issue, and it is one that will probably cost TLOU the season (unless Mavs lose twice in the next four days). TLOU will maybe have another Draw with a score of 6874 today, putting them further behind Mavs and even at risk of being passed by Red Snow. We need to have a small red gas penalty to differentiate between teams, and also to have a 1.25x multiplier for draws.
    Proud member of Mavericks OG, a top 3 global GW and challenge guild.
    Message me on the forums or on Line (ID: jayztwdnml) if you're interested in joining the Mavericks family of guilds.

    Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGSePrANMyf_S_YKJyfJodg
    Strategy compendium: https://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/41787/jayzs-nml-strategy-compendium
    Nova_TWDATLAS-ZWellyLugaTCBRITOSPCPasteTroublemaker
  • ___
    ___ Member Posts: 28

    Yep our Season is done because of that shit Red Gas.
    [Deleted User]TCBRITOn00b
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Member Posts: 996
    Draw is the new black :) 
  • ___
    ___ Member Posts: 28
    I think without that red Gas, we would be number 1. Just my opinion. Thanks to NG for that Great Solution to the Red Gas problem. :)

    congrats to Mavs. 
    TCBRITObrucewayne007ChrisScorpio
  • Paste
    Paste Member Posts: 848 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Perhaps you top guilds can reach a gentleman's agreement and announce the winner here based on the season score including bonuses for how many flawless scores you had draws you had?

    Except if two or more guilds reach the highest possible scores every war it'll still be a tie.
    If you want to get better at this game, join Discord and learn badge crafting and much more: https://discord.gg/cDhgv3AJ89
  • Muirna
    Muirna Member Posts: 142
    Add another row of even harder missions is the solution?
    find2046
  • brucewayne007
    brucewayne007 Member Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like your thinking here @JayZ

    The easiest solution to fix this would be to give us a select Hero that can give you extra points when leading. It adds a new type of strategy and difficulty towards GW. 
    We use to have it, so NG doesn’t have to do anything new within coding and all that Jazz. This would almost prevent any type of draw.

    And for arguments sake there is a Draw, x1.25
     
    ChrisScorpio
  • NerfZone187
    NerfZone187 Member Posts: 788
    Guild wars is the new milking mechanism to replace the stale game mode (weekly challenges) 

    NG is smart and definitely knows how to secure the long-term bag💰lol
    find2046
  • Mario_Romero
    Mario_Romero Member Posts: 218 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This conversation is a little one-sided and contradictory to some other threads in this forum asking for more competitiveness.

    Isn't that what the red gas does? Scores have increased massively across the board bringing a lot of teams closer together.

    Here there are some top top players asking for the resource that is freely and for the most part abundantly available to be penalised whilst the resource that is only available in bulk at a hefty price, tools, is not adressed at all.

    I think for that reason alone its the use of tools that should be penalised. It doesn't have to be a lot at all. Even if it is only one VP per tool used it will make it so that draws will become a very rare occurence indeed. Allthough preferably it would be a little more (2/3 VP).

    The very low penalty of VP will not make NG sell one less tool (if the price of completing 6H of 6G is so low it's definitely still worth it to stock up on tools if you are so inclined) and you can argue that a team that used less tools has had a better match.
    So let's make this the way to differentiate between teams. Let the limited resource decide it, not the one available to all.

    And if draws do still happen the rewards should be split, 1.25 multiplier for both teams. It's ludicrous to treat both teams as losing.
    ATLAS-ZSarge_Firekid