New badge trait bonus system is a step back - needed some fine tuning

kmr · December 2022

Since the update has came out players have already discovered some details how new (and old) traits are involved into badge crafting system. Unfortunately the current system is worse than before in terms of predictability and chance is definitely lower to get a good badge if we targeting badges with decent trait bonuses. The only advantage is that we (somehow) have all the traits now.
As we've understood traits now are organized into two groups (of 9 traits), whilst before update we had 4 groups of 3 traits.
Group of traits are now:
- Lucky, Strong, Marksman, Vigilant, Sure Shot, Defensive Stance, Follow Through, Punish, Critical Aim
- Dodge, Iron Skin, Retaliate, Power Strike, Bullet Dodge, Ruthless, Perseverance, Revenge, Weakening
The main problem is that both groups are a mix of useful/useless, ranged/melee, offensive/defensive traits and due to the bigger pool the chance for a given trait is much lower (11% instead of 33%)

So @Lexia please consider to make some adjustment on the new system grouping the traits differently.
It would be more advantageous to group the traits based on Defensive/Offensive purpose:
- Defensive: Defensive Stance, Punish, Dodge, Iron Skin, Retaliate, Bullet Dodge, Revenge, Vigilant, Lucky
- Offensive: Strong, Marksman, Sure Shot, Follow Through, Critical Aim, Power Strike, Ruthless, Perseverance, Weakening
With Def/Off groups we still would have only 11% chance for a given trait bonus, both groups are still a mix of favorable and unfavorable traits, mix of ranged and melee traits but at least could support the type/purpose of the badges.

TembelOne · December 2022

even tho i agree with most of u said @kmr i still cant accept they took our %33 and we are already willing to go with %11. that just sucks.

this should be done in better ways. not with "hey, i cut ur chances of getting the badges with the traits u want by %66 and u have to no say in this". its not a small amount..

its not about any endgame or new player mechanism, its just "nope, u have to try harder and pay more for rerolls if u need anything decent"

not cool at all. not even for NG standarts..

NatsuDark · December 2022

Guys, you have to understand that NG has nothing to do with the Badge Map mechanism. It was purely player discovered, so NG doesn't have much control over how it behaves.

If I may say so, it was discovered by a font that "what has a big influence on the map is an list that defines the order of the bonus badges".

So I suggest reorganizing such an list in such a way that its behavior can favor the Badge Map, as suggested. I think it will not change anything in the game, but it will change on the badge map.

The list must be reorganized by taking turns of the traits, so that the system's behavior helps us with the badge map:

Defensive Stance, Strong, Punish, Marksman, Dodge, Sure Shot, Iron Skin, Follow Through, Retaliate, Critical Aim, Bullet Dodge, Power Strike, Revenge, Ruthless, Vigilant, Perseverance, Lucky, Weakening

Probably if you pass this information on to the developers, they should understand

Paste · December 2022

NatsuDark said:

Guys, you have to understand that NG has nothing to do with the Badge Map mechanism. It was purely player discovered, so NG doesn't have much control over how it behaves.

They do though. NG coded the game, so they are technically the ones in control, and they can change the crafting mechanisms (evidently they just did). The map is not the same as the crafting mechanisms. It's a community effort to represent the mechanisms for players to use. NG never published, guaranteed, or supported its functionality, but that doesn't mean we can't request changes to the mechanism. When we do, people will talk about them as the map as if NG made it, and I think that's fine as long as they don't expect NG to maintain/support the actual representation (map).

This thread is not about the map, it's about the crafting mechanisms (which just got A LOT worse with this "upgrade").

FuriousMoldovan · December 2022

Now imagine the world where crafting mechanics were changed the way I pitched them - to include new traits in small groups, instead of packing 18 traits in 2 groups:
https://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/50573/new-badge-bonus-conditions-long-overdue/p1

The world would've been a better place 🦄 😏

Burmeliinis · December 2022

We may argue about semantics, but there was already a suggestion on how to fix this.

Change the order of the traits so they are in exactly this order:

Defensive Stance, Strong, Punish, Marksman, Dodge, Sure Shot, Iron Skin, Follow Through, Retaliate, Critical Aim, Bullet Dodge, Power Strike, Revenge, Ruthless, Vigilant, Perseverance, Lucky, Weakening

ghost_pepper · December 2022

I almost never post here anymore. Updates like this badge maps system are a great example of why. It feels like (when I am polite) I am talking to a wall. NG doesn't listen. It just does what it wants. This is like taking a honey badger and a game developer and mixing them together. Watch the honey badger video on YouTube if you didn't catch that.

There is less chance of making usable badges now. Not desirable, usable. Because certain traits are not usable in this game. Which begs the issue, can NG please finally update the dooky traits into new boss traits which are cool while also improving the secondary traits that are not good enough for serious players to even touch with the meta? That aside...

There is now more randomness on rerolling badge bonuses because there are more bonuses. This makes an already unacceptably expensive badge bonus reroll system worse.

If NG won't listen to UNIVERSAL AND UNANIMOUS PLAYER FEEDBACK that this new badge system is unusable/unacceptable, then at least take this aweful piece of product and repackage it with a nice bow. Here's how:

Reduce the badge reroll system to 5 reroll tokens per bonus reroll. It stays fixed at 5 tokens and never gets more expensive. This is a slot machine in the skin of a phone game and it's time to admit it.

Reduce the badge reroll system for badge slot/possition and bade set/shape to 5 tokens for the first reroll and then 10 tokens for each additional roll. These rerolls still have the replacement exception of no repeats untill cycling through the options available. (At least I think so, I haven't checked, but this would help players.)

If the badge system will not be tinkered with and improved, or even overhauled under player suggestion, then at least significantly reduce the reroll system. That seems a fair compromise to me.

ghost_pepper · December 2022

It seems like it's worth mentioning this additional aside bit of information.

It's not actually necessary to even use badges anymore, mostly. The meta for the game is now such that players play challenge without taking a hit and play gw walker maps without taking a hit. Badges aren't even necessary in outpost because firebug is faster.

Badges can help if killing humans in gw but 80dr is pretty easy to get to without a ton of effort. And badges do help a little bit in last stand if you play that game mode (I played my first round of last stand earlier this week since early summer while waiting forever at the spay/neuter clinic). I guess badges might help with scavenger now that I remember the name of that mode.

Right now most of my heros don't have badges because I was too lazy to switch them around. When killing humans in gw, I recycle shooters so whatever wounds they have the next shooter replaces the previous one. They don't need badges. They just need to drop fire from 6 spaces away.

Badges are marginally more useful than the frivolous costume changes available for purchase. Making it easier for players to get good badges will help casual players more than top players. (I'm not a top player just an apathetic one but I did finish challenge last week and make 20k gw points last season.)

ATLAS-Z · December 2022

@ghost_pepper whoa!!

Why you bagging on my frivolous costume changes bro? 🤣🤣

JordanYuki · December 2022

There’s a few ideas that I like. @ATLAS-Z ‘s suggestion that heroes can benefit from badges with their bonus, and when rerolling bonuses, you can only get a same type bonus. Exemple, when rerolling a trait bonus you can only get another trait bonus,

I also think it would help if NG reworked / buffed old traits in a way that they can compete with currently used traits. For exemple, change Follow through so its as good as strong with no clear winner. That way we could have some heroes with strong, some with follow through and we could use badges with both these bonuses.

too many useless traits

ATLAS-Z · December 2022

@JordanYuki yeah, make Follow through work like Shane's leader trait but for melee and ding-ding you got a winner!

Kasimir · December 2022

Dear Alexia, no offending, but…

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6025874/uploads/editor/nc/440zo8pxtmch.png

Kasimir · December 2022

Sorry

Killdozer187_ · December 2022

My badges are fine without using the da Vinci code crafting map or rerolling.
*ain't nobody got time for dat*
You are chasing % perfection when perfection isn't needed to destroy the Netflix AI learning machine.

Here are some tips: Buy a D9 Dozer, armor plate it, destroy every conceivable level in the game!

ShadowWalker · December 2022

Cool we're making an angry mob again? Let me get my pitchfork.

ghost_pepper · December 2022

JordanYuki said:

There’s a few ideas that I like. @ATLAS-Z ‘s suggestion that heroes can benso w
Wait efit from badges with their bonus, and when rerolling bonuses, you can only get a same type bonus. Exemple, when rerolling a trait bonus you can only get another trait bonus.

So wait you're saying:

Players can reroll a badge trait bonus to a new trait bonus, except ONLY a trait bonus from that group (group 1 or group 2). And because it's 9 traits per group, we know that substitution isn't necessary. NG can set it up as without replacement so we can cycle through all trait options from that group and not see the same traits again untill we've seen each trait at least once. That's why rerolling set and slot doesn't generate the same repeating option until we've seen every option, because the number of options is 9 or fewer.

So then rerolling bonus would become like rerolling set and slot. It would no longer be possible infinite loop of suck. Instead it would an cheaper or more expensive trip with reroll tokens past the crap untill reaching the desired trait.

That sounds workable. NG should do that.

Great idea!

kmr · December 2022

@Lexia any comments to the OP?

Lexia · December 2022

Have been following the conversation and shared with the team

Not sure though why Sergeant Abraham would be on drugs? 😅

kmr · December 2022

Lexia said:

Have been following the conversation and shared with the team

Not sure though why Sergeant Abraham would be on drugs? 😅

Thanks, fine.
We hope you"ll decide to do this small adjustment soon.

Axe · December 2022

Y porque en lugar de 2 grupos de 9, no hacen 6 grupos de 3 rasgos o bueno ir variando pero 2 grupos de 9 es terrible, otra opción es que sean grupos de insignias por rasgos de clase, o para tropas de ataque cuerpo a cuerpo y a distancia, ya que hay rasgos como castigo exclusivo de la clase matón y como rasgos disparo seguro exclusivo de tropas a distancia

DocGonzo · December 2022

I hope you're able to take the player's feedback and improve the situation. I was hopeful when you were adding the new traits. This was definitely not an improvement in my humble opinion. It was a gamble before, now if I get a perfect badge...It looks like I need to buy a lotto tickets before my luck runs out.

ghost_pepper · December 2022

I was crafting everyday without having done the update. I've been trying to crank out as many dmg badges on LMS as i could. But now the crafting is all funky and strange. I'm getting bonuses that I shouldn't be getting where I shouldn't be getting them. It's all messed up with wrong bonuses ruinning my gold crafting.

So if you haven't updated yet and were thinking about crafting while you still could... Sorry, the party is over. Save your stuff untill some better version comes along.

ATLAS-Z · December 2022

I'm not a code guy but I'm wondering if this happened (or was necessary) because the trait pool is no longer divisible by 4? (we have 18 traits now instead of 12)

I find myself wondering if, down the road, 2 more traits were added would there once again be 4 smaller pools of traits? What would happen if they added only ONE new trait in a few months?

IoSonoSempreNegan · December 2022

I hope it will be our Christmas present.

ShadowWalker · December 2022

ATLAS-Z said:

I'm not a code guy but I'm wondering if this happened (or was necessary) because the trait pool is no longer divisible by 4? (we have 18 traits now instead of 12)

I find myself wondering if, down the road, 2 more traits were added would there once again be 4 smaller pools of traits? What would happen if they added only ONE new trait in a few months?

I am also not a code guy, but if this is true then maybe we can remove Punish and Defensive Stance from the pool of traits for badge bonuses so that we can have 16.

As @WellyLuga pointed out in another thread, Punish is a bruiser only trait so that really limits any badges you craft with that bonus. Defensive Stance is just garbage, it doesn't even matter if it might be a good trait for defenders, because defenders can't use badges anyway, so there is no reason to craft a badge with this trait.

So if we get rid of those two we can then have four groups of four, perhaps something like this:

1. Lucky, Marksman, Sure Shot, Critical Aim (good for offensive ranged)
2. Iron Skin, Power Strike, Ruthless, Follow Through (good for offensive melee)
3. Strong, Vigilant, Perseverance, Weakening (good for offensive melee, and defensive bruisers)
4. Dodge, Retaliate, Bullet Dodge, Revenge (good for defensive builds, particularly for PvP)

I kept the groups as similar to the old groups of three for NG's convenience.

Noiserating · December 2022

@ShadowWalker I disagree for punish. To me it seems bullet dodge is much more garbage because PvP defender can not use badge...

ShadowWalker · December 2022

Noiserating said:

@ShadowWalker I disagree for punish. To me it seems bullet dodge is much more garbage because PvP defender can not use badge...

Yeah, but PvP attackers can use badges...

...and many Heroes start off with Bullet Dodge, so for newer players BD badges can be useful until they reroll (which can be a while).

However, I'm not really going to argue that in general Bullet Dodge isn't a garbage trait. The main point I was making was that we can bring it down to 16 if that makes things easier from a coding perspective. So if we got rid of Bullet Dodge and Defensive Stance would you still disagree with the premise?

Novell · January 11

Lexia said:

Have been following the conversation and shared with the team

Not sure though why Sergeant Abraham would be on drugs? 😅

Hope the next update will undroduce the great ideas player had!?

- regroup the traits

- reduce reroll cost massivly

- when rerolling a trait bonus you can only get another trait bonus

- Hero/ class condition can use with the hero/ class

@Lexia : Please bring it.

IoSonoSempreNegan · January 13

Novell said:

Lexia said:

Have been following the conversation and shared with the team

Not sure though why Sergeant Abraham would be on drugs? 😅

Hope the next update will undroduce the great ideas player had!?
- regroup the traits
- reduce reroll cost massivly
- when rerolling a trait bonus you can only get another trait bonus
- Hero/ class condition can use with the hero/ class
@Lexia : Please bring it.

It should be clear that the update was not an improvement, the bonuses are now a lottery.
Considering even just a couple of these suggestions would be a good thing to do.

New badge trait bonus system is a step back - needed some fine tuning

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